“Things had radically changed. … They had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.”

In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to a concrete hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community potluck.

Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day.

Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community.

If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you’re going through, and get the support you need.

About Conversing Shorts

“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”

About Mark Labberton

Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.

Show Notes

• A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton’s master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary
• “… not just overwhelmed, but really undone”
• “ … the possibility of ending my life …”
• Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community
• Beauty of friendship
• A magnificent extravaganza
• Sharing not just food but hope
• “Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.”
• “For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day.”
• If you’re feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor.
• Seek community.
• “Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” (David Brooks, from the episode)

There’s a growing chasm that divides the affluent and non-affluent in American society, and it’s perhaps most pronounced in higher education. The elite meritocracy suggests that we should reward individual ability, ambition, and accomplishment. But what is “merit” anyway? What is “ability”? And how do they factor in our idea of “a successful life”?

In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for a conversation about elite meritocracy in higher education.

Together they discuss the meaning of merit, ability, success, and their roles in a good human life; hereditary aristocracy and the populist backlash; power and overemphasis on intelligence; the importance of curiosity for growing and becoming a better person; the value of cognitive ability over character and other skills; the centrality of desire in human life; moral formation and the gospel according to Ted Lasso; ambition versus aspiration; and the impact of meritocracy on the political life and policy.

About David Brooks

David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project.

Show Notes

• “How the Ivy League Broke America” (via The Atlantic)
• “The meritocracy isn’t working. We need something new.”
• Money and the elite meritocracy
• “Every nation has a social ideal. And for the first half of the twentieth century, and the last half of the nineteenth century, our social ideal was the well-bred man.” (e.g., Theodore Roosevelt to Franklin Roosevelt to George H.W. Bush)
• “Rich people rigged the system.”
• “Now, if you come from a family in the top 1 percent, your odds of going to an Ivy League school are seventy-seven times higher than if you come from a poor family. And a lot of schools around the country have more students in the top 1 percent than the bottom 60 percent.”
• “We now have this chasm between the children of the affluent and the children of the non-affluent.”
• Shocking stats: “By eighth grade, children of the affluent are four grade levels higher than children of the non-affluent. People who grew up in college-educated homes live eight years longer than people in high-school-educated homes, they’re five times less likely to die of opioid addiction, they’re twenty-two times less likely to have children out of wedlock, they’re two and a half times less likely to say they have no close friends.”
• “We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.”
• Too much power
• What is “merit”? How do you define “merit”? Who has “ability”?
• IQ is not a good indicator of merit.
• “Our meritocracy measures people by how well they do in school. The definition of intelligence is academic ability.”
• “What’s the correlation between getting good grades in school and doing well in life? The correlation is basically zero.”
• “We measure people by how they do in one setting, which is the classroom. And then we use that to declare how prepared they are for another setting, which is the workplace.”
• “Augustine said, we're primarily not thinking creatures, we're primarily desiring creatures.”
• Leon Kass (University of Chicago): “What defines a person is the ruling passion of their soul.”
• “We become what we love.”
• Predominant emotion of fear
• Curiosity, the love of learning, and getting better every day
• “You’re plenty smart. You’re just not curious.”
• Tina Turner’s memoir, discovering her voice and self-respect.
• “What matters is being a grower, the ability to keep growing.”
• “Getting old takes guts.” (David Brooks’s eighty-nine-year-old father)
• A sense of purpose
• The drive for the future, to be bold
• Henry Delacroix and the genius of America to drive for boldness, hard work, growth, and energy
• Moral materialism
• Vincent van Gogh said, “I’m in it with all my heart.”
• Paul Cézanne and Émile Zola, L’Oeuvre
• Yo-Yo Ma, cello, elite performance, and passionate humanity: “I’m a people person.”
• “Look at these creatures. They’re amazing!”
• Ordinary people in ordinary circumstances
• “Social intelligence” is not really intelligence—it’s an emotional capacity.
• Individuals and teams
• “What makes a good team? It’s not the IQ of the individuals. It’s the ability to take turns while talking. It's the ability to volley ideas and to feed into a common funnel of thought.”
• Project Based Learning
• Most Likely to Succeed (documentary, High Tech High)
• The Hour Between Dog and Wolf John Coates
• Self-awareness and adeptness reading your own body
• Emotional agility
• “The mind is built for motion. That what we do in life, we don’t solve problems, we navigate complex terrains.”
• “We’re all pilgrims. And we’re all searching for the journey that will transform us. And so it’s, the mind is not this computer designed to solve problems. The mind has helped us navigate through a space. And if we do it well, then we become transformed.”
• Applying meritocracy to the 2024 election
• “If you segregate your society on IQ, You're inherently segregating on elitist grounds.”
• “The rebellion that is Donald Trump.”
• Jesus’s form of selection—“When Jesus was selecting his twelve, he didn’t give them all a bunch of standardized tests. … He saw that each person was made in the image of God.”
• “And to me, what (frankly) the Christian world offers us is a re centring of the human person.”
• Controlling the passions of your heart
• Christian humanism
• Ecce Homo
• Rene Girard and mimetic desire
• Ambition vs. Aspiration
• The gospel of Ted Lasso and David Brooks’s favorite definition of moral formation: “My goal is to make these fellas better versions of themselves on and off the field.”
• *Still Evangelical* (essay by Mark Labberton)
• “Am I yet evangelical?”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Our increasingly reactionary political environment doesn’t lend itself to nuanced, patient understanding of events like the 2024 re-election of Donald Trump. What historical and philosophical resources can help us gain insight and wisdom? How can we successfully know and encounter each other in such a divided society?

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got here.

Together they discuss the multi-generational class divide; sources of alienation and distrust; how loss of faith and meaning influences political life; intellectual virtues of courage, firmness, humility, and flexibility; what it means to be a Republican in exile; the capacity for self-awareness and self-critique; and much more.

About David Brooks

David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen (Random House, 2023). He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project.

Show Notes

• A spiritual or emotional crisis we’re working out in American politics
• Should we blame inflation and economic factors? (Biden’s Covid-19 overstimulation)
• Class divide is a generational thing
• High-school-educated voters are increasingly alienated from the Democratic Party
• Alienation and distrust is a multi-decade process
• Loss of Faith, Loss of Meaning, and the “Death of God”
• An exiled Republican
• “Confessions of a Republican Exile” (via The Atlantic): ”A longtime conservative, alienated by Trumpism, tries to come to terms with life on the moderate edge of the Democratic Party.”
• “I’m a Whig.” (”Abraham Lincoln was a Whig.”)
• Edmund Burke and epistemological modesty—”don’t revolutionize something you don’t understand.”
• You should operate on society in the way you operate on your father, with care.
• Alexander Hamilton
• Whig tradition is unrepresented in contemporary American politics
• How David Brooks waffles between Democrat and Republican
• Isaiah Berlin: “At the rightward edge of the leftward tendency.”
• “The capacity for self-critique
• Matt Yglesias
• Humble, introspective, and “how did we get so out of touch?”
• Racism and sexism are not what’s driving Trump voters
• “In my opinion, Donald Trump is wrong answer to the right question.”
• Mark Noll and America’s use of the Bible: un-self-aware and un-self-critical
• Why is there more capacity for self-critique on the Democratic
• Jonathan Rauch and “Epistemic Regime”: includes media, universities, scientific research, review process, etc.
• “There’s still a core of people who believe ‘if the evidence says x, you should say y.’”
• “The greatest victory in the history of the world.”
• Intellectual Virtues: Courage, Firmness, Flexibility
• “Reality is constantly going to surprise you.”
• 1980s Republicanism was more intellectually sophisticated
• Conservative book publishing
• *Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change* by Jonah Goldberg
• How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks
• “The Stacking Stereotype”
• “A redistribution of respect” (away from large swaths of America and to elites)
• “The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials.”
• “… almost no Trump supporters.”
• “If you tell 51% of the country ‘Your voices don’t matter,’ people are going to get upset.”
• America changing beneath us
• High level of spiritual and moral authority and low level of intellectual confidence
• The moral teaching of the New Testament
• “People are unitary wholes.”
• “I became a Christian around 2013.”
• “Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don.”
• C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien’s Christianity
• “What it’s like to be in the claustrophobic mind of a narcissist.”
• Aggression: a joyless way to see the faith
• What is needed?
• “I was a 50-year-old atheist.”
• Chris Wiman (My Bright Abyss: Meditations of a Modern Believer): materialistic categories couldn’t explain the world
• “If they made me pope of the evangelicals, which is a job that makes me shudder…”
• “Be not afraid.”
• “The world just loves a human being that’s trying to act like Jesus.”
• David Brooks’s teaching at Yale
• The Long Loneliness: The Autobiography of the Legendary Catholic Social Activist by Dorothy Day

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

How should we respond to the anxiety, fear, and catastrophizing of Election Day? Is there an alternative to fight, flight, or freeze? Can people of Christian conviction stand firm, grounded in faith, leaning into the storm?

In this special Election Day episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes Peter Wehner (columnist, the New York Times, The Atlantic) and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary) to make sense of the moral, emotional, and spiritual factors operating in the 2024 US general election.

Together they discuss the emotional response to political media; faithful alternatives to the overabundance of fear, anxiety, and catastrophizing; how the threat of affective polarization divides families and friendships; biblical attitudes toward troubling or frightening political and cultural events; how to respond to vitriol, anger, cynicism, hate, and manipulative language; and how the church can help restore trust and be a faithful witness, standing firm through the political storm.

About Peter Wehner

Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships.

Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives.

Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia.

About David Goatley

David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995).

In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment.

Show Notes

• Anxiety, Uncertainty, and Worst-Case Scenarios
• The regular appeal to “the most important election of our lifetimes”
• Assuming the worst about others
• “We are at a fork in the road for a certain kind of vision of who we want to be.”
• “As an African American, many of us always live in the crosswinds.”
• Living with fragility, vulnerability, and uncertainty
• Hymn: “On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand”
• Anger, Antipathy, and Fear
• Passions and beliefs—and an electoral system built to amplify those
• “They’re more amplified than in the past.”
• Families and friendships that divide over politics.
• Feeling like we “share a continent but not a country”
• Affective polarization—”There’s a sense of the other side being an enemy.”
• Catastrophizing
• Recalibrate, reset, and rethink
• Hoping that calmer heads prevail
• Church splintering and aligning with partisan politics
• “God will use all things—not that God intends all things.”
• The political balance wheel
• “Fear is not a Christian state of mind.”
• “Hope is based on something real.”
• “The long game for believers is to hearken back to the early church and remember that Jesus is Lord, and the emperor is not.”
• Political toxicity that infects the household of faith
• “We have to do all that we can to live with peacefully with each other.”
• Vitriol, hubris
• “It’s important to name things. … If you don’t name them—if you try to hide them—then you can’t begin the process of healing.”
• “Faith is subordinate to other factors that they’re not aware of.”
• The Era of Fear: What informs our fears? What can we do about our fears?
• Fear of the Lord that sets us free
• Firmness as an alternative to fighting or fleeing
• “Valuing the vibrant diversity of God”
• “Expand your reading.”
• Breaking out of conformity and homogeneity
• “Meeting the moment”: Inflection points in a human life or a society’s life—a moment for leaders to rise up, speak, and shape
• Example: Winston Churchill and Great Britain pre–World War II (from pariah to prime minister)
• Example: Jonathan Haidt’s The Anxious Generation and the agenda to make schools phone-free
• These aren’t the conditions for human flourishing
• “We’ve got to be faithful. We may not be successful.”
• Cultivating a political garden to prepare the soil for shared core values of decency, respect, fairness
• “… what we have loved, / Others will love, and we will teach them how” (William Wordsworth, “The Prelude”)
• Loving the right things
• Voting
• “Complicating my view of the world.”
• “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”
• Before voting: “A prayer to submit myself to the will of God.”
• “Tell me how you came to believe what you believe … over time it can create a feeling of trust”
• “What don’t I see? What about my own blindspots?”
• Stunned by the profundity and sobering word that “God will not be mocked”
• Expressing convictions through voting

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.